(Genesis 2:15–17 NIV11) “The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the LORD God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.'”Here's my epiphany and a question, for you to help me answer, all in one: I know that there is no evidence found within the Bible to explain where evil came from; we don't know when evil began existing. However, none the less if God created the world and it was good and without sin, why create a tree that holds the knowledge of good and evil if evil was never intended for the world? I think I need to do a bit of reading. Any thoughts?
Wednesday, August 03, 2011
The knowledge tree of good and evil...
During our Bible study the other night I had an epiphany. We are working our way through Sean Gladding's "The Story of God, The Story of Us" and this week we looked at the account of the first human's first sin. We all know the story, they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil when God said the shouldn't. Here is an excerpt:
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Hey Ben. I too have been thinking about this. The only for me to picture this is to draw a circle on a piece of paper. Lable inside the circle 'good'. This represents all that God made. Anything not in that circle is the opposite of good. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, what they 'discovered' was that there was in fact an alternative to being in God's 'good' world. Prior to that moment, only God had that knowledge, and the temptation put to Adam and Eve was that they could be like God, and know the difference too. One thing that helped me get my head around this was the realization that sin and evil are not the same thing. Sin is the choice to not live according to God's plan for us. Evil is opposite of all that is good. Just some of my thoughts on this. Would love to hear what you discover.
ReplyDeleteHi Ben
ReplyDeleteI think matt is right on this
Now you know I’m not a bible scholar by any stretch of the imagination or any scholar for that matter, but there are some things in your question that seem obvious. Note the word Seem! Oh and by the way I’m sure you will have many epiphanies in your life but this remains an enquiry until a revelation answers it, but I digress, sorry, back to your question. You mention that you know there is no evidence of where evil came from yet we know God created the tree of good and evil. So it would stand to reason that God created evil as stated in (Isaiah 45:7, KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. BUT the key here is what Evil is? It’s not a tangible item it’s an effect just as darkness is the result of the absents of light, as cold is the absents of heat. Is evil simply the absents of good or God, then evil it was created by default. So God created the world and it was Good and without Sin makes perfect sense and when good was taken away by eating of the fruit its opened the door for evil to enter just as turning down a lamp allows darkness to spread. So to me it would appear Evil was always there from the very beginning.
So why create evil? I think it was always Gods plan to give us choice, if there is nothing to choose against free will becomes a difficult concept.... just my thoughts I’d be interested in your findings
Paul Yardley
Ok guys, I've got a long way to go in answering my question however I have given it some thought and have also benefited from your comments.
ReplyDeleteSo here are some preliminary thoughts.
Firstly: Thanks Paul, it is an enquiry, as opposed to an epiphany. Hopefully the epiphany will come later.
In regards to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, I wonder if there is any credence for it being a sort of sacramental name, in a sense the tree has no magical powers as such, but it is called that because of what happened there. In a sense the Author is giving the tree that particular name because of what we know happened there. And so it wasn't the magical fruit that held the knowledge of good and evil but it was rather the action of disobeying God's command that gave them the knowledge of good and evil? So the tree was just the prop and in actual fact could have been a tub of ice-cream that they weren't to eat from. I've not come to a conclusion yet, but still trying, would like to know your thoughts on this idea though.
Matt: In regards to sin and evil, could it be that sin and evil are closer linked than what we would actually like to think? See I am probably more comfortable thinking that I sin everyday to a certain extent, but I'm not evil everyday. I think that sounds good. But maybe it's more serious, maybe our sin is actually evil. For the wages of sin is death, in terms of it's consequences I'm sure it's the same for evil. Could it be that all sin, a rebelling against God, is in fact an act of evil. It's our sin that nailed Jesus to the cross, is that not an act of evil. And so there are evil people but are we all not to evil to some degree by the very fact that we sin?
Paul: I think evil is a bit more than just the absence of good, like darkness is the absence of light, it seems evil is destructive, evil wants to replace light with darkness. Maybe cancerous cells are a better analogy. Evil could be more of an active force rather than a filler, though it does that, just as darkness fills where there is the absence of light. Anyway here is a quote from the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary in regards to the origins of evil and what Israel thought of evil in relationship to God:
"Within the confines of its own henotheism and later monotheism, Israel grappled with explaining the relationship of evil to its conception of God. It did not develop a metaphysical dualism in which evil could be explained as the work of demonic powers. Neither did it develop the concept of a capricious God to whom both good and evil could be ascribed. Rather it developed an ethical monotheism. Within this conception a major solution was to look for the justice of God in the eschatological future (Mal 4:1–3—LXX 3:19–21), i.e., to accept the mystery of evil by conceptualizing a creator God with greater freedom to work in ways and for purposes that transcend human understanding (Job 42:2–3)."
(Freedman, David Noel, ed. The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary. Accordance electronic ed., version 3.5. New Haven: Yale University Press, 2008.)
In a sense we have to treat evil as a bit of a mystery, it's origins etc, but acknowledge God as the one who will get rid of it.
Gee there is so much to think about, it is such a complex issue.
Still your thoughts are appreciated and I hope your able to critique my arguments. Looking forward to where this takes us.
Ben
Paul - I enjoyed reading your response and you make some great points that are giving me things to think about.
ReplyDeleteBen - I enjoyed you response also. Not sure if I quite understand what you are getting at when you say "I wonder if there is any credence for it being a sort of sacramental name"... Are you suggesting that the tree is a analogous representation of a concept, rather than a physical tree? Interesting idea. My push back to you would be to consider the existanse of the other tree in the garden, the Tree of Life. On a side note, I find it fascinating to think that God never said that Adam couldn't eat from this tree. Excepting, that after knowing good from evil, God had to 'physically' stop Adam and Eve from having access to that tree. Why? Could it be that eternal life AND knowledge of good and evil would mean that man could in fact achieve 'god' status, a pursuit that mankind has been on ever since being evicted from the garden.
I must admit you have surprised me Ben, you have entered into an area that few dare go but possibly should be examined closer, although ultimately we will only know the answer when all is said and done. Conceptualising the tree of good and evil in the garden of Eden and giving Evil a life of its own is an interesting premise, but just how far should we take it? What about the Serpent? Are we to believe that God created all these animals and only one talking serpent or is this a concept too. Or was this really Satan taking the form of the Serpent.
ReplyDeleteI take it Matt that you are suggesting that continual eating of the forbidden fruit would have cause and effect of increased knowledge to that of the equal of god? This then being reason for ejecting Adam and Eve from the garden and placing a Guard in the form of a Cherubim and a swinging sword of fire to guard the entrance. Why then do this if there was not more to gain from returning and feeding again from the tree. This would suggest the tree in the middle of the garden was a threat and might not be so much of a concept than a real source Knowledge.
The problem is that we are used to the luxury of having the complexity of the Supernatural Heaven explained within the bounds of Natural Earth. I can only imagine there has to be some loss in translation. I wonder If Adam could see us today if he would believe that we had continued to eat from the tree of Knowledge learning how to fly, descend beneath the waves, ascend above the Earth and travel upon it as fast as the cheetah.
Strangely even after two thousand years of development with all that man has achieved I still feel we are so far below “God status” to me the closer we get it seems we have an even bigger distance between us, a gap that could only be bridged by the Son of God. Perhaps if Adam and Eve were permitted to eat from the tree of Knowledge they would have learnt to fly, drive cars, communicate over great distance even Discovered DNA but that link that bridge between man and God, I think is essential to the story.
Hi Guys,
ReplyDeleteI have added a new post. You should check it out. Basically it is a continuation of this one but instead of adding too much to a comment box I have just made a new post. Would appreciate your thoughts.
Ben
Paul - I see what you are saying. However, a closer look at the text reveals that it is not the tree of knowledge... but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The point i was making was that Adam and Eve could not be allowed to eat from the other tree, the tree of life. Hope that helps clarify. By the way, i am really enjoying this stretching conversation.
ReplyDeleteIt is great to get your teeth stuck into these complex discussions. Hey on a side note, The book that I mention in the blog is well worth the read. I highly recommend buying it, and having a read.
ReplyDeleteI can’t help but feel the Key to this is Lucifer or Satan if you wish. We know that he was present in the garden, we know he wasn’t a serpent and we know there’s no talk of apple eating. There is however a ton of symbolism that leaves clues as to what might have really happened. There are also a few missing pieces that effect time lines and we must be mindful of this.
ReplyDeleteSatan was removed from heaven and sent to the earth although he returns to heaven on several occasions according to Job when Angels are gathered by God and is made to report of his whereabouts
When God banishes him and why he didn’t do so earlier is not clear but he walks the Earth freely He is cunning and Serpent like but not in looks as Ezekiel tells us he was the most beautiful of all the Angels he was a major Stud muffin…. While our discussion touched on the tree being a metaphor were it has in various verses referred trees to men being planted firm. or showing strength in a man and as the “tree” was of good and evil could this be referring to Satan himself. Now what then the interaction between Eve and the Stud muffin was is really anyone’s guess but whatever was passed between them whatever Eve learnt she taught or passed on to Adam. The awakening we know was Sexual in nature and filled them with Shame, meaning to cover.
Now I don’t really want to get all Lion King on you but what if,( and god always said if they would indulge it would end in death…) what Satan did was to make man mortal by teaching them how to reproduce. Thus making more men and woman and only God had done this, so they in a way achieve “God like status.” And kick off the Circle of life…. witch ends in death, Queue Elton. OK it’s a little out of left field but it answers so many questions... Am I totally wrong did I miss . Ben feel free to answer without a concordance reference lol I would like to know what is going on in your head.
Matt I have heard nothing but good things about you from many family and friends although I don’t think we have met yet…. but feel free to blast holes in this...
Hi Guys,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comments, here are my thoughts. (with no commentary references).
Firstly there was a tree (an actual tree) of the knowledge of good and evil. Secondly I believe Adam and Eve knew or had knowledge of good and evil; when the serpent asks them about the tree they knew that eating it was wrong. And so I would want to argue that what the knowledge that they received from eating the tree was in-fact experiential knowledge as opposed to untested knowledge. A child is told that a hot plate is hot by his parents; he knows it's hot, but until he touches it he doesn't experience the hotness, and so there is knowledge and knowledge. One is un tried and one is from experience and with consequences.
It was at the tree that they experienced the knowledge of good and evil, it was at the tree where the consequences of doing evil (wanting to be superior to God) was truly felt and experienced, from that point on they KNEW about good and evil because they experienced it, and we have been living with that experiential knowledge ever since.
The tree's name I believe could have been given in hindsight by the author. It is a REAL tree, but the fruit on in is not magical or has super powers, the tree was called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because that is where the knowledge of good and evil was truly discovered. A bit like when Australia was discovered. We talk about the discovery of Australia even though when they discovered this land it was not called Australia. It was only called Australia after. It was only given the name before in the retelling.
Paul, to push back on your comments: The tree is not the devil, the tree was a tree. The serpent was a serpent, and it was only since the New Testament that we have thought of the snake as the devil incarnate. I believe we can read too much into the nature of the Devil and go beyond what we need to for this account to still have meaning.
In regards to what was passed on by the serpent: we really only discover that what was passed on was the option to be gods-to be there own law makers. And secondly it was Adam and Eve there together- so the idea of the sin being women's first then man's is not plausible. They both sinned together. Therefore both were at fault.
Sexuality and Reproduction: This can't be what resulted from eating the fruit. Sex is not as a result of Adam and Eve eating the fruit. Sex is and always has been God designed and ordained (praise God). Genesis 1:28 says “God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” Sex and reproduction was a blessing from God, a Gift to humanity. We also read in Genesis 2:24, “Forthis reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.” One flesh-Joined together-the special bond of marriage-united mind body soul. What did change though was that sex and vulnerability (they were naked and felt no shame) was turned into something shameful.
In regards to Satan or in Job the satan. We assume, I believe too much when we think that "the satan" in Job is "Satan" God's enemy. In Job the references to Satan are referring to "the satan" which in ancient hebrew means the accuser. This accuser isn't necessarily evil and seems to be working within the parameters God lays out for them, testing and challenging, etc- in the first place it is God who introduces Job to the satan. To link the serpent-the satan in Job-and Satan may be beyond what was there to begin with.
These are my opinions-thoughts?
Finally Ben this is what I wanted to hear, sorry I have been busy and late getting back here but was very pleased when I returned to see your response. OK it took a little poking and prodding and the introduction of ever increasingly off the planet radical ideas but you came out and crushed them and that is what was important. Matt too didn’t buy into the argument and stood his ground.
ReplyDeleteThe book of Genesis is an account of the beginning by God so why should we believe that tree is not just a tree if that is what God said, after all it wasn’t the Library of Eden it was the Garden of Eden and while we often look for deeper answers sometimes as a young friend of mine says, It is what it is.